Post by Sweet on Jul 18, 2016 9:53:20 GMT
I just read a comment on Critically Touched Buffy Forum (comment 29 bt TheDoThatGirl). Well actually it's in the Angel Forum but it mentions something happened on Buffy.
Anyway, this is the interesting part:
This is not the first time I've read something of the sort and every single time I think 'why is everybody so sure of what happened to Angel???'. There are so many things that the fandom makes a *fact* without actually being so and it just bugs me
I'm not saying that this person is making up things, mind you, just that somewhere in the years we (I'm putting myself in the bunch too) have started taking for granted what *everybody says*. Even if it does not correspond to the truth.
And this, Angel being in Hell for 100+ years and also being tortured doesn't correspond to he truth.
So, let's see what are the true facts about the subject of the thread.
Angel was sent in Acathla's dimension in Becoming p.2 (2x22) and came back at the end of Faith, Hope and Trick (BTVS 3x3), so he was 'away' for 3 episodes. When he came back he was feral for one episode and then he was himself once again in the next one. I'm pretty sure he never said anything about how long he was there and about what happened to him there.
This - from Beauty and the Beasts (BTVS 3x4) - is the only mention that I remember about what has (supposedly) happened to Angel:
...and it's clearly just that: a supposition. Made by someone who clearly knows nothing on the subject. As a fact, Giles himself says that "there's no record of anyone returning from a demon dimension" - all demon dimensions, not just Acathla's - so if no one ever who was there came back to tell about it, there is no way to be sure 1. of how time works there and 2. that Angel was tortured.
In regards of the time issue we have on ATS two different instances of demon dimensions: Quor'toth and Pylea. In Quor'toth time runs faster. Baby Connor is brought to Quor'toth by Holtz at the end of Sleep Tight (ATS 3x16) and comes back at the end of The Price (ATS 3x19) so he was in that hell dimension for 3 episodes (hey, same as Angel!), which is safe to say correspond to just a few earth weeks and came back as a 16 years old. But in Pylea time worked exactly as on earth: Fred was trapped there for five years in both Pylean and Earth time.
This means that time doesn't work the same in all dimensions and therefore Giles saying that time moves differently in Acathla's dimension isn't necessarily true. It's possible, of course, but there is absolutely nothing stating that Angel was there for 'hundreds of years'. Even if time in Acathla's dimension worked as in the Quor'toth, it woud mean that Angel was there for circa 16 years, like Connor. But actually the speed with which Angel recovers suggests that, whatever happened there, it wasn't even for so long. In fact it took Angel just one episode to go back to his old self. Would it be possible if he had been in Acathla's dimension for years? I very much doubt it, especially comparing it to Buffy's long and suffered struggle to adjust in s6. And she had been in a heaven dimension, not hell!
About Angel being tortured, this is yet another assumption made by both Giles and Buffy and this time there is a lot of logical evidence imo that it's a wrong one.
Firstly, there is the fact that Angel himself (with Drusilla's help) was the one to try to open Acathla's portal to its dimension. The goal was to have it pull everything on earth in it. Everything. So this means Angel too, right? And why the heck would Angel want to go in a dimension where he would be tortured??? Nope, as stupid as he could be this just doesn't make sense!
Then we have Giles' words from Becoming P1 (BTVS 2x21)
"Any non-demon life will..." etcetera etcetera. Of course just like Giles' other words we can't take them for granted. I'm not choosing which one are true or not depending on what I like. But this... this makes sense! We don't need first hand testimony to think that the idea of demons (and Angel is a demon) being the ones tortured in a hell dimension is just ludicrous
the whole point of Angel's agenda was to give the demons there a bunch of humans to torture, not to be tortured himself.
And Pylea is an example of how things work in the hell dimensions: demons rule, humans suffer.
Lastly we have Connor and Holtz's experiences in the Quor'toth. Going by Sahjhan's words the Quor'toth was "the darkest of the dark worlds.", still Holtz, a mere human, and Connor, a baby, were able to survive for sixteen years and they clearly avoided being tortured. So to think that a vampire, a demon, would be tortured in a dimension ruled by demons makes no sense at all.
Anyway, this is the interesting part:
Angel,after the 100+ years spent in Hell after 'Bargaining pt 2,'
This is not the first time I've read something of the sort and every single time I think 'why is everybody so sure of what happened to Angel???'. There are so many things that the fandom makes a *fact* without actually being so and it just bugs me
I'm not saying that this person is making up things, mind you, just that somewhere in the years we (I'm putting myself in the bunch too) have started taking for granted what *everybody says*. Even if it does not correspond to the truth.And this, Angel being in Hell for 100+ years and also being tortured doesn't correspond to he truth.
So, let's see what are the true facts about the subject of the thread.
Angel was sent in Acathla's dimension in Becoming p.2 (2x22) and came back at the end of Faith, Hope and Trick (BTVS 3x3), so he was 'away' for 3 episodes. When he came back he was feral for one episode and then he was himself once again in the next one. I'm pretty sure he never said anything about how long he was there and about what happened to him there.
This - from Beauty and the Beasts (BTVS 3x4) - is the only mention that I remember about what has (supposedly) happened to Angel:
Giles: Well, there's no record of anyone returning from a demon dimension once the... gate was closed. I-I-I can't imagine how it could happen or-or why.
Buffy: Let's just pretend for a second that... Angel somehow found his way back to Sunnydale. What would he be like?
Giles: I really can't say. From what is known about that dimension, i-it would suggest a world of... brutal torment. And time moves quite differently there, so...
Buffy: I remember. So he would've been down there for hundreds of years.
Giles: Yes. (looks up at her)
Buffy: Of torture.
Buffy: Let's just pretend for a second that... Angel somehow found his way back to Sunnydale. What would he be like?
Giles: I really can't say. From what is known about that dimension, i-it would suggest a world of... brutal torment. And time moves quite differently there, so...
Buffy: I remember. So he would've been down there for hundreds of years.
Giles: Yes. (looks up at her)
Buffy: Of torture.
...and it's clearly just that: a supposition. Made by someone who clearly knows nothing on the subject. As a fact, Giles himself says that "there's no record of anyone returning from a demon dimension" - all demon dimensions, not just Acathla's - so if no one ever who was there came back to tell about it, there is no way to be sure 1. of how time works there and 2. that Angel was tortured.
In regards of the time issue we have on ATS two different instances of demon dimensions: Quor'toth and Pylea. In Quor'toth time runs faster. Baby Connor is brought to Quor'toth by Holtz at the end of Sleep Tight (ATS 3x16) and comes back at the end of The Price (ATS 3x19) so he was in that hell dimension for 3 episodes (hey, same as Angel!), which is safe to say correspond to just a few earth weeks and came back as a 16 years old. But in Pylea time worked exactly as on earth: Fred was trapped there for five years in both Pylean and Earth time.
This means that time doesn't work the same in all dimensions and therefore Giles saying that time moves differently in Acathla's dimension isn't necessarily true. It's possible, of course, but there is absolutely nothing stating that Angel was there for 'hundreds of years'. Even if time in Acathla's dimension worked as in the Quor'toth, it woud mean that Angel was there for circa 16 years, like Connor. But actually the speed with which Angel recovers suggests that, whatever happened there, it wasn't even for so long. In fact it took Angel just one episode to go back to his old self. Would it be possible if he had been in Acathla's dimension for years? I very much doubt it, especially comparing it to Buffy's long and suffered struggle to adjust in s6. And she had been in a heaven dimension, not hell!
About Angel being tortured, this is yet another assumption made by both Giles and Buffy and this time there is a lot of logical evidence imo that it's a wrong one.
Firstly, there is the fact that Angel himself (with Drusilla's help) was the one to try to open Acathla's portal to its dimension. The goal was to have it pull everything on earth in it. Everything. So this means Angel too, right? And why the heck would Angel want to go in a dimension where he would be tortured??? Nope, as stupid as he could be this just doesn't make sense!
Then we have Giles' words from Becoming P1 (BTVS 2x21)
Giles: Well, the, uh, (puts on his glasses) the Demon Universe exists in a dimension separate from our own. (sits on the table) With one breath, Acathla will create a vortex, a-a kind of, um... whirlpool that will pull everything on Earth into that dimension, where any non-demon life will suffer horrible and... eternal torment.
"Any non-demon life will..." etcetera etcetera. Of course just like Giles' other words we can't take them for granted. I'm not choosing which one are true or not depending on what I like. But this... this makes sense! We don't need first hand testimony to think that the idea of demons (and Angel is a demon) being the ones tortured in a hell dimension is just ludicrous
the whole point of Angel's agenda was to give the demons there a bunch of humans to torture, not to be tortured himself. And Pylea is an example of how things work in the hell dimensions: demons rule, humans suffer.
Lastly we have Connor and Holtz's experiences in the Quor'toth. Going by Sahjhan's words the Quor'toth was "the darkest of the dark worlds.", still Holtz, a mere human, and Connor, a baby, were able to survive for sixteen years and they clearly avoided being tortured. So to think that a vampire, a demon, would be tortured in a dimension ruled by demons makes no sense at all.