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Post by Illyria on Jun 14, 2016 22:44:32 GMT
It's a constant debate - should Spike's soul mean that the evil he did should be erased? Should the good deeds he did also not count? It all goes something like this:
If one claims that Spike isn’t responsible for the bad he did without a soul, then he isn’t responsible for the good he did, either. It's a blanket proposition - it's not fair to erase his evil and allow his good.
But Spike is capable of doing good - because of the chip. We’ve never dealt with a chipped vampire - and Angelus was never chipped. Tat doesn’t mean he had any sort of moral compass - the good things he did were pretty much from self interest. But chipped Spike was able to care about a few humans in ways that unchipped Spike wasn’t interested in.
Angelus was either demon or souled demon - Spike has a state of being where his demon was throttled and latent personality traits were forced to the top in order for him to adapt to the chip and survive. In that area any comparison between the two of them is false.
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Post by Sweet on Jun 15, 2016 10:26:25 GMT
It's a constant debate - should Spike's soul mean that the evil he did should be erased? Should the good deeds he did also not count? It all goes something like this: If one claims that Spike isn’t responsible for the bad he did without a soul, then he isn’t responsible for the good he did, either. It's a blanket proposition - it's not fair to erase his evil and allow his good.But Spike is capable of doing good - because of the chip. We’ve never dealt with a chipped vampire - and Angelus was never chipped. Tat doesn’t mean he had any sort of moral compass - the good things he did were pretty much from self interest. But chipped Spike was able to care about a few humans in ways that unchipped Spike wasn’t interested in. Angelus was either demon or souled demon - Spike has a state of being where his demon was throttled and latent personality traits were forced to the top in order for him to adapt to the chip and survive. In that area any comparison between the two of them is false. God, I don't know how many times I've read this complain lol ok, my take is very simple: I expect evil soulless vampires to do evil things. It's in their nature, which makes them once souled not responsible for those acts (even if they feel they are). While it's not in their nature to do good selfless things, therefore I think that it's logical and fair to be surprised, pleasantly surprised, IF they do. This is the official position in the Buffyverse, this is how Buffy views the issue and this is how I view it. Those who complain? Well, I honestly think that it's because soulless Spike doing good selfless things makes Angel look bad. No, I stand corrected: it's the bad things that souled Angel does that make him look bad, Spike (soulless AND souled) makes Angel look worse. So to me it's just a petty and childish complain from Angel and his fans. About the chip, my stance is Dawn's: the chip and the soul... "same diff". They work much the same. Both chipped Spike and souled Angel want to go on with their evil life, they both try but are physically incapable of doing it, they both resent that hindrance that was forced on them, they both try to get rid of it, they both still can and do bad things, they both eventualy come to terms with it and try to adjust to their new situation. And during all that they both have the opportunity to live among humans and learn to care for them. That's why I have no issue in comparing the two and I believe that Angel comes out very very bad from the comparision (hence the complains). Because there aren't only similarities, there are also many differences. The biggest one is that chipped Spike does learn to care and keeps that ability even whithout the chip while Angel just switch to his evil counterpart once he loses his soul, erasing in one second everything that happened during the time he was souled. This big difference is evidence of the fact that ultimately Angel without the soul has no hope whatsover to change and become a better man while soulless Spike was already on that path. |
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Post by mcwoo81 on Jun 16, 2016 23:27:50 GMT
Spike wasn't a good guy because of his chip, Spike was a good guy because he was inherently a good guy BEFORE he became a vampire. He cared greatly, loved more and was very sensitive. He didn't go looking for the darkness, the darkness found him and changed him
Angel on the other hand was a git before he became a vampire and went looking for trouble wherever he could find it. His evil deeds proceeded his turning and so his balance was far outweighed to begin with. The curse changed him, but maybe beyond what he was from the start. Maybe he would have been the kind to kill and not care as a human. We don't know, maybe the curse enhanced his pain after it was put in place.
Spike, for me, will always be the greater champion in that respect. Angel was selfish from the start (and as noted in another thread his motives in Angel to do good was to wipe his slate clean and be human again so was also selfishly motivated). Spike was a truly good guy.
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Post by Sweet on Jun 16, 2016 23:48:34 GMT
Spike wasn't a good guy because of his chip, Spike was a good guy because he was inherently a good guy BEFORE he became a vampire. He cared greatly, loved more and was very sensitive. He didn't go looking for the darkness, the darkness found him and changed him Angel on the other hand was a git before he became a vampire and went looking for trouble wherever he could find it. His evil deeds proceeded his turning and so his balance was far outweighed to begin with. The curse changed him, but maybe beyond what he was from the start. Maybe he would have been the kind to kill and not care as a human. We don't know, maybe the curse enhanced his pain after it was put in place. Spike, for me, will always be the greater champion in that respect. Angel was selfish from the start (and as noted in another thread his motives in Angel to do good was to wipe his slate clean and be human again so was also selfishly motivated). Spike was a truly good guy. To be honest, I can't say that soulless Spike was a good guy, he was evil and capable of evil things, but I see your point and I like especially your words about darkness changing him. He was made evil by the demon in him and by the influence of those around him: Drusilla, Angel, Darla, but his soul, his personality is inherently good and the proof is that once souled he couldn't even kill other demons at the beginning. On the other hand Angel killed even with his soul and didn't feel guilty for it. I think the issue with him is that he is a narcisist, he isn't able of feeling real deep love for anybody except himself. Oh, eventually he learns to care for someone, Buffy, Cordelia, Connor, Fred... but love? No, not if it went against his own interests. He is indeed selfish. Though I don't think he really ever cared to become human, you do? I think he does good because he is the kind of 'man' that needs validation, who wants to be important. He was the 'best' evil vampire and now that he can't be that anymore (because, and I have to give him credit on this, he can't kill as he did before the curse) he's trying to be important as a hero, a champion. That's why he hates Spike so much, because he isn't the only souled vampire anymore and Spike's good actions bring to light the bad things that Angel still does. |
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Post by mcwoo81 on Jun 17, 2016 8:33:03 GMT
Sorry I should have quoted before replying: But Spike is capable of doing good - because of the chip. We’ve never dealt with a chipped vampire - and Angelus was never chipped. Tat doesn’t mean he had any sort of moral compass - the good things he did were pretty much from self interest. But chipped Spike was able to care about a few humans in ways that unchipped Spike wasn’t interested in. Spike was predisposed to being good as, as a human, he was good. I'm not saying that chipped Spike was not selfish: he missed the fight and purpose his life had and so fought for good because it gave him something to give him back that purpose. He could hurt demons so he took that chance to regrow, but to my mind accidentally became the man he was prior to being sired. This was witnessed when he got his soul back and removed the chip. He could have left at that point, but he didn't. He stayed in the fight. Sweet, you asked if I thought Angel really wanted to become human. I think yes,but again for selfish means. It would mean he could walk in sunlight, live and finally die as a human, but more important to him he could finally have Buffy. Spike also having a soul does indeed shine a light on Angel's inherent badness as, as I keep saying, Spike was always a good man and Angel knows he's not. But, as pointed out on the show, the existence of a soul does not mean goodness. Nor does it mean selflessness. Giles had a soul and he still killed Ben. His motives were selfish: to protect Buffy. So he is an interesting point: Regardless of the nature of good or bad of any party all actions could be viewed as selfish. The question should be do the selfish good deeds outweigh the selfish bad onea because of their intention? |
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Post by Sweet on Jun 18, 2016 18:04:44 GMT
He could have left at that point, but he didn't. This. And I'm adding that he could have left even before, when he was still soulless. Drusilla offered him the chance to go back to his old life, to be free of feeding on humans. And even without Drusilla he could have still been evil, he just had to get some minions to work for him. But he didn't, because of Buffy and because he was starting to change. Sweet, you asked if I thought Angel really wanted to become human. I think yes,but again for selfish means. It would mean he could walk in sunlight, live and finally die as a human, but more important to him he could finally have Buffy. I have a different theory about that. I don't think Angel cared to live and especially die as a human, he likes to be a vampire and the thing he wants the most is to be important. How could he be important if he was a useless human? And you know, I also believe that when he was sired by Darla he knew what it was about and wanted it. But that's another story  About Buffy and their relationship, I don't see much love on Angel's side. There is surely no evidence of it in s1, especially in the last episode where Xander tells him that Buffy has gone to face the Master. Angel clearly doesn't care that she's going to die and has no intention to help her. In fact Xander has to threaten him with a cross to force him to go. In s2 there are just few episodes and then they have sex and he loses his soul. In s3 he pushes Buffy to have sex with him, uncaring of the risk of losing his soul again and then after Amends they become a couple but he is clearly (and luckily! lol) unhappy and unsatisfied of their relationship. Buffy talks of leaving Sunnydale to go in a college in another city and Angel has no intention of following her. Why doesn't he? He has nothing keeping him in Sunnydale. He decides to dump Buffy just when she changes idea about the college and there are some scenes in those last episodes where he looks like he... I don't know how to explain, like their relationship - Buffy - is becoming to demanding. Buffy wanting him to go with her to the Prom, sleeping together without having sex, and the dream about getting married. He looks like the typical guy who doesn't want to get to involved, if you know what I mean I don't think that he doesn't care for Buffy, but I don't feel he loves her so much to be willing to share his life with her. Which is exactly what he tells her. So his leaving Buffy at the end of s3 just feels like something he really wants to do. the selfish good deeds outweigh the selfish bad onea because of their intention? To me motivation is more important, so my answer would be no. In rl we can't really know why people do what they do, in fiction it's easier (or it should be). Angel's motivation are not so clear, because he says something and does the opposite. In Spike's case I see them more clearly |
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