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Did anybody order an apocalypse?
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Post by Glorificus on Jun 3, 2016 21:06:04 GMT
Which one do you like more and why?
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Post by Sweet on Jun 5, 2016 11:53:29 GMT
It's definitely Chosen for me.
It's not because of the cliffhanger in NFA because I love those a lot and, generally speaking, I can't say that I don't like NFA or ATS either, but I think the show, just like the character (Angel), is too contradictory and fails in its messages.
In that final episode we see Gunn going to that girl, Anne, and asking her what would she do if she knew that what she was doing was useless and she basically answers that she still would go on doing it. And that's a great message. You still go on fighting.
But it's not what Angel does, he doesn't go on fighting. Apparently it's what he does but if you think of it, really think of it, what he does in reality is STOP fighting. He gives up, he basically commits suicide and drags everybody, his loyal friends and a whole city (without their consent) toward an almost certain death. What's good in that?
Another theme and message of ATS should be about redemption and imo it fails at this as well. One of the very last thing Angel does is ordering Lorne to bloodcoldly kill Lindsay. Because 'he isn't part of the solution'. Uh? Let's say it's true, that Lindsay isn't part of the solution... firstly, who is? It doesn't seem that no one really is because one message is very clear: there is NO solution, you just go on fighting. So that's just an excuse or Angel to execute an old enemy and in doing so he fails with his own redemption. Secondly, even so, does this mean that Lindsay deserves to die? And who is Angel to decide who gets to live and who doesn't? Who deserves a chance to redemption and who doesn't? And why doesn't he order Harmony's death as well? Surely she 'isn't part of the solution' even more! So, no redemption for Angel, none for Lindsay, Lorne becomes a killer out of loyalty, and the shallow, treacherous Harmony gets a letter of recommendation. What's good in that?
On the other hand, despite the sometimes poor execution and some plot holes, Chosen fullfills all the show's messages, which aren't so different from ATS': we have the characters that go on fighting and the once 'evil' ones having their true redemption.
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Post by Illyria on Jun 5, 2016 23:51:18 GMT
I have problems with both. I think it was wrong for Buffy to activate every potential in the world because all sorts of girls will think they have gone insane from the slayer dreams, and will quite possibly be dangerous. But, on the plus side they did manage to keep a horde of demons from taking over the earth.
Angel's statement - his one brief shining moment (Camelot, Camelot..sorry) basically was mass suicide that allowed a huge horde of demons to rampage through LA. But all his fighters were volunteers, and he actually did some harm to the bad guys. as well as lots of people...
Both endings were problematic - and I really love them both!
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Post by Sweet on Jun 6, 2016 13:06:20 GMT
it was wrong for Buffy to activate every potential in the world because all sorts of girls will think they have gone insane from the slayer dreams, and will quite possibly be dangerous. But, on the plus side they did manage to keep a horde of demons from taking over the earth. as you surely know, in the fandom there is a lot of criticism about Buffy's decision to share her power and while I can understand the reason about the lack of consent I can't see how it's more important than the danger those girls were going to face, first by being targeted and killed by the First and then by the world being overpowered by it's demon army. In letting Willow do that spell, Buffy gave all those defenseless girls the possibility to defende themeselves, the people they loved and, IF they wanted, the world. Yes, she didn't ask them first (just those who lived in her house at the time) but really, what human being with a full functioning brain would refuse? Now you are mentioning the slayer dreams and imo this is even less important because those dreams are surely not worse than nightmares people can normally have nor do they happen so often to be such a problem. In Buffy's shoes would this thought have stopped you? Both endings were problematic If we are talking of writing issues, I'm totally in agreement with you: neither episodes were far from perfect but if we are looking at it from an in-story pov, the reasons you stated do not compare to me. I mean, Buffy's decision empowered those girls and saved the world (ok, it wasn't just that, but still). Angel's got almost all his friends killed and sent a whole city and its inhabitants to hell. How can both endings be equally problematics from this point of view?
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Post by mcwoo81 on Jun 16, 2016 22:17:23 GMT
I have to say for me it was Chosen. Angel lost my love in season 4 (not their fault, just bad timing from Charisma Carpenter's pregnancy meant their story arc was all mushed and kinda creepy with whole Connor thing). But Chosen did pull back some of what made Buffy great in the first place. Female power, strong team work, great acting and good comedy moments. It was more rounded than some of the other episodes in that season.
That said, NFA provided one of my favourite scenes in the Buffy/Angel sphere. Spike getting drunk, getting on stage, doing his best known poems (the one he wrote and performed on the day he was sired) and getting a huge applause from an audience of tough biker type dudes. Brilliant.
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Post by Sweet on Jun 16, 2016 22:32:03 GMT
kinda creepy with whole Connor thing agreed. even if I know now that she isn't really Cordelia it's still creepy That said, NFA provided one of my favourite scenes in the Buffy/Angel sphere. Spike getting drunk, getting on stage, doing his best known poems (the one he wrote and performed on the day he was sired) and getting a huge applause from an audience of tough biker type dudes. Brilliant. seriously it is. Marsters is amazing in his acting, I couldn't think of no one else as Spike!
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